84. Breaking the Ranks: Navigating Infidelity in Military Marriages with Caz Grant

In this episode of "After the Affair," Caz Grant joins me to explore the intricacies of infidelity in military marriages. We delve into how the unique challenges of the military lifestyle can impact personal relationships and communication, leading to profound isolation and unmet needs.

Caz shares her personal journey through the aftermath of an affair, the painful but enlightening road to divorce, and the invaluable lessons learned about self-reflection and growth.

Key Takeaways:

• Infidelity in Context: Infidelity often stems from unmet emotional needs and poor communication rather than a desire to hurt the partner.

• Impact of Military Lifestyle: The rigid structure and frequent relocations inherent in military life can exacerbate communication barriers and hinder the resolution of relationship issues.

• Communication Breakdown: Cultural norms within the military may discourage open emotional expression, contributing to relationship strains.

• The Affair and Its Aftermath: The circumstances leading up to the affair, its discovery, and the subsequent communication breakthrough.

• Healing and Growth After Infidelity: Strategies for recovery and personal development post-infidelity, including the importance of understanding oneself and meeting one's own needs.

Bio: Caz Grant, a RAF veteran, found love and got married amidst the challenges of military life. However, her transition from service into civilian life brought unexpected changes and the painful reality of her own infidelity. Now, Caz shares her story to offer support to other military couples facing similar struggles, hoping to shed light on the unique challenges they may encounter. Find @cazgrant84 on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/cazgrant84/

💬 Reflection Questions:

How have the demands of your lifestyle, military or otherwise, shaped the way you communicate in your relationship?

Connect with Luke:

• Website: www.lifecoachluke.com

• Instagram: @mylifecoachluke

• Email: luke@lifecoachluke.com

Join the After the Affair community at www.facebook.com/groups/aftertheaffaircommunity

Episode Transcript:

The After The Affair podcast with me Luke Shillings is here to help you process, decide and move forward on purpose following infidelity. Together we'll explore what's required to rebuild trust not only in yourself but also with others. Whether you stay or leave I can help and no matter what your story there will be something here for you.

Let's go. Hello everybody and welcome to episode number 84 of the After The Affair podcast. I'm your host Luke Shillings.

Before we get fully into today's episode I just want to offer a quick reminder about the new Facebook group the After The Affair with myself Luke Shillings, the After The Affair community. It's a place where we take the conversation from the podcast off the airwaves. We extend, we expand, we go into more detail.

I offer live Q&As once a week and also explore different conversations and topics and really the community is there to be a supportive discussion led by myself but also by other members of the community and I hope to continue to add exclusive content and insights from the podcast and even some more behind-the-scenes stuff that generally people don't get to see. There is a lot of information regarding infidelity out on the internet and I for one know what it's like and how easy it is to get lost in that minefield. If you already enjoy the podcast and want to take it one step further then the community is the perfect place for it.

There is no obligation to post and even if you do you can choose to post anonymously if that feels more comfortable. Maybe just come in and watch the content I post. Maybe read the comments from other people.

It's really there to be used however you want to use it. I appreciate what a challenging time this can be and I certainly don't want to make anybody feel more uncomfortable. However obviously it would be great to see you there and to be able to connect with people that normally it's only a one-way communication.

You know, you listen to me all the time. I don't get to meet very many of you so I hope to see you there. Simply drop onto Facebook, search for After the Affair with Luke Shillings or you can put it directly in the URL facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash After the Affair Community or one word and obviously I'll pop links in the show notes.

Okay on with the show. Today I have a special guest. Her name is Kaz Grant.

She's an RAF veteran. She found love and got married amidst the challenges of military life. However her transition from service to civilian life brought unexpected changes and the painful reality of her own infidelity.

Now Kaz bravely shares her story to offer support to other military couples facing similar struggles, hoping to shed light on the unique challenges that they might encounter. For me personally I grew up and still live right next door to a military base in the UK. I, as I've mentioned on the podcast before, I previously also used to own a pub, public house, restaurant, bed and breakfast and that was in the same village that I grew up in and many of the patrons of the pub were men and women from the forces and although this is well over a decade ago now I had many conversations and learned to many examples where betrayal was quite common in the living quarters in the you know in the barracks and and behind the fence if you like that separated those within the military and those on the outside.

Now of course as we know this is the first time I've spoken about the military and the forces during our time on the podcast and there is plenty of infidelity in the world so it's certainly not unique. However there is a certain set of circumstances that arise in that environment particularly where one partner spends a lot a lot of time away. They have been deployed for sometimes months at a time and this can create a very challenging and quite quite difficult dynamic amongst and between a couple.

This is the kind of stress that would affect any relationship and subsequently this can also lead to more acts of betrayal. So one of the reasons I wanted to speak to Kaz today was because she has that experience from the other side and has seen it from the other side and of course I'm interested I want to learn more and and I wanted you to all be witness to this conversation so let's get straight into it. Hello Kaz, welcome to the After the Affair podcast.

It's a pleasure to have you here. Would you like to perhaps just start by introducing yourself maybe a little bit of background as to why we're having this conversation today? Yeah sure so hi Luke thanks for having me on. So my name is Kaz Grant and I have a background from the military.

So I was in the military myself for 12 years and then also whilst in the RAF I was married and when I came out I got married so I had that connection still to the RAF through my ex-husband and and I am on this podcast today because there was an affair that took place and obviously we're going to be discussing kind of that but also relationships in the way of through the eyes of military and people who are away a bit more maybe than the civilian counterparts let me say. Yeah I think that's a really interesting point because say me coming from a more civilian background and having lived very closely to the military, geographically very close, I met lots of people throughout my life who are in the forces not just the RAF but in various forces and there does seem to be certainly from an outside perspective there's an element of structure and hierarchy and that doesn't just exist in the role within the job which obviously is important. From my observation at least I see that filter down through into the personal lives of people as well and of course that's only an observation that's just my opinion, my assessment of it.

I've got no idea whether I'm actually right or not and so one of the reasons I'd like to talk to you is really to understand that a bit more. So let's start there, when you think about the structure and the hierarchy within the forces how does that correlate with the personal life? Yeah sure and again this will be just my perspective of it because everybody is different, every relationship is different isn't it? You will get people within the military that are maybe more civilianised or more used to that world and vice versa. So while I was in the military it was interesting because I've got that very unique perspective of being in and also being on the outside and watching in so it's really quite cool but when you're in you don't really necessarily know or understand or think about it too much.

There wasn't really, while I had my time in the military, I wasn't really looking at what I did, analysing it, behaviours or anything like that, it was just something that I was in, I was a part of, everybody was going along doing the same thing, we were told where to be, what to do, what to dress and we just went and did it and that was what we did. There is definitely a hierarchy and you definitely listen to the people that are above you but that was just the norm, that was just the everyday life and what you'd signed up for and what you were doing. So then when you kind of flip that into the relationship side of it or you leave and you come out of that environment and you're in the relationship side, the military is still the number one out of everything.

Everything revolves around the person within the military because it has to, if you are the one that goes away, you are the one that gets told when to go away, you're the one that deploys, you're the one that maybe has the higher powered job, again, not in every situation, but most of the time. So then your life still revolves around what the military say you need to do and not do. So even though they're not at home necessarily, you know, make your bed, that kind of hierarchy, they're not like, you know, the boss of the relationship exactly, but the military is still sort of in charge.

It does influence it in some way because of that priority role that it plays. And, you know, of course, it is the fundamental source of both the family's livelihood and structure and everybody that you live with in and around are all in the same kind of metaphorical boat. Yeah, yeah, especially you.

So obviously the military has marriage quarters on on the basis. So if you are a part of the people that live within the marriage quarters, then obviously, yeah, your whole connection system within that is still very much military. Sometimes, again, depends on on what you've chosen to do and how your life works for you.

You might live outside of the patch, outside of the patch. It's all these words I'm trying not to use because it gets very confusing with military slang. But yeah, if you live outside of the patch, you might be more, you know, integrated into civilian life.

So from what I understand, then, so you are obviously in the military for a period of time and then you came out, but you were still married to somebody who was still in the military. And then you've mentioned already that infidelity took place within your relationship. Would you like to sort of walk us through that a little bit? Yeah, sure.

So I actually wasn't married. Sorry, Luke, I wasn't married when I first, when I was in. We got together when I was in.

And then I'd left and moved up north, but we'd stayed in that same area. So I'd continued the relationship. And then a couple of years after me leaving the RAF myself, we got married, then moved on to the patch, the married quarters and, you know, combined lives and lived together, got married.

Yeah, and spent our time together. So, so there was that period in between where we weren't, we were dating, but we weren't quite married yet. I see.

So we did that and we got married. It must have been a few years down the line. We had bought our, we'd bought a house in the countryside, so we'd moved away from the married quarters.

And I don't know if there was an element, we never discussed this or talked about this, but I don't know if there was an element of, you know, that, that little move, maybe into Civvy Street a bit more would make us, I don't know, bring us a bit more closer together. We'd have the perfect house as such. We'd be living the civilian life and not within the military quarters.

Did you feel there was something missing or restrictive whilst still in the military quarters? What was it about the, this life outside that was so appealing? Do you know what? I don't know. I think it's that almost that shiny penny thing, like the grass is greener. Maybe, maybe everything's not so exactly rosy here.

So if we just did this a bit differently and moved there, maybe that would, you know, give us the spark that we needed, would inject something into the relationship, something would happen. And again, this is just coming from me because both of us weren't that great at communicating with each other either. So we've not discussed this together.

So anything that I'm sharing here as well is my, my take on it and my opinion on it. I know it takes two. So, yeah, I think we thought that maybe that would do something or change something or make something a bit better.

And obviously it never happens like that, does it? Because actually you can move wherever you want, but the issues are always going to be within yourself. It's that age old thing, isn't it? Where we think that the new job, the pay rise, the holiday, the fancy car, the this, the that, the great, the private school, whatever it is, it's the external thing that we think is going to solve the problem that's going to fill that void that we have, whatever that looks like. And this is not just in relationships, it's just obviously within ourselves.

But like you say, that sort of fulfilment, that happiness, that joy that only can come from within and the physical environment, although an influence, it is not the controlling factor. And I think that's one thing with being in the military as well. You're so used to moving all the time that by the time there is ever, you know, an issue or something that you're not happy with about your job, well, you're just going to move anyway.

So then you're in a new environment and it, you know, there's that period of time where, oh, yeah, everything is a little bit different and great and wonderful. And then you're like, oh, no, it's still, still with me again. So, yeah, there's always that.

When you think, when you think about, like, from your perspective, because somehow you're obviously only sharing your side and you only can do, of course, sides is the wrong word, but your perspective. What did you feel was missing? What was, what was wrong with the relationship from your perspective that even made this shiny penny, as you describe it, a thing to even hope for? So I think for myself, it was, we just were never connecting. We never spent time communicating properly, both of us.

And, and again, that's such a loaded word is such a thing. But when are you ever taught to communicate properly in a relationship? Sometimes you almost have to get it wrong a bit at first to realise, oh, actually, you know, if we'd just spoken about this, then, you know, none of this would have happened down the line. But so communication was never there with us.

I felt like, and I do feel like that was a little bit of the military for both of us. For myself, when I joined the military, it was back in 2003, there was very much, you put your big girl pants on, you go and do it, you don't cry, you're one of the boys, you just, you know, so you never, you were never encouraged back then to communicate, to share, to say if anything's wrong, or you just hold it in and you just grin and bear it and you get through it. And I know he would have felt like that as well.

And he has felt like that throughout his career in as well. So you've got two people then that were that were taught from a very young age, to hold things in and just push through. That's really interesting.

And again, you have this, admittedly, it's a stereotype in terms of how men and women handle their emotions and how we deal with things, particularly in the context of relationships. And, you know, stereotypically, it's the guys, they get they're getting this sort of like subconscious societal message of, you know, man up, big boys don't cry. And, you know, like you say, all your big girl pants up, so to speak.

And, and it's so interesting to think that your experience and your relationship with the military in this case, but I can imagine there are many other industries that probably have a similar kind of impact, that encourage you to actually also do the same and sort of almost like shut off to an extent your, your ability to communicate and connect on a level that is probably to some level essential for a long term romantic relationship. Because this is not just a formal contract that you're engaging in when it comes to a romantic relationship, there's there's more to it, there are deeper feelings, there's connection, there's understanding. And I mean, do you have to be of a certain personality type to go into the forces? Or does the forces influence the type of person that you are? I think anybody could do it and anybody could join it no matter the personality type.

I do think there are people that probably have a bit more grit and would put up with that more than other people maybe would. I think basic training would quite, that's probably what happens at basic training, actually, you know, the ones that like sod this. Yeah, and the ones that are like, okay, I can put up with this.

And I can I can close everything off. And I can go through this then then they stay maybe. Yeah, so there's potentially that but I don't know, there's there's so many different people that you meet in the military.

There's so many different. And I'm not trying to pigeonhole it. I'm just trying to get an understanding.

It's to, you know, because again, like I say, there's obviously there's an observation that I've had from the outside. And it's very easy to put things and people in boxes to be able to, you know, just to better navigate the world, I suppose. It's kind of what we all do to some extent, which is why this is such an interesting conversation.

Okay, so you've got to the point now where you've you do move out into the countryside and you get the house and what then? Yeah, so so I guess we're in the reality of it now that the the changes happened and that was supposed to magically fix everything without us talking through anything and having to actually have a conversation with each other. And then in a queue, I think it was probably about nine months, something like that, about nine months into it. Obviously, it's not changed anything.

And that realisation dawns. And actually, is this it now? Is this all there is? Is this the future? Is this everything? And what I didn't realise was how isolating actually, so so you're on a military camp, and you've got all of that community. We were there during some of the pandemic.

So still quite isolating, because you couldn't fully integrate. But, but now I was in a village. And he was away, not not all the time, but he was away for short periods of time, a lot.

So then you're in this new world that you've created, but even more isolated, because you're further out of anywhere that there's friends or community or the gym or just anything. I don't, I can't even remember my exact thought processes during it or what I received. But it just got to the point where I was like, gosh, they must.

This is it. And and I had no idea how I was going to change any of it. Or, you know, could I talk to him about any of it? You know, there was probably times where both of us probably would have tried to talk to each other about certain things.

But again, we've never, we never did. And we never could, between ourselves. So then it just gets to that breaking point.

And then what happened was he went away for I think he was away for three weeks or something. I had been chatting to somebody over that time. And I had an affair.

And it happened. And I, it's the worst thing to say. And it's the most horrible thing to say out loud.

But I feel like this is such an important thing to be able to share personally for myself, because I don't think we talk about this enough. And I don't think we open up these conversations enough, within relationships and out of relationships and once it's gone wrong, and how and, and from all different kinds of perspectives, sometimes we hear from people who the affair happened to them. And, you know, awful and horrible and well turns upside down.

But nobody speaks up about the person that had the affair. And equally, although you know, though it's not right, and although it's wrong, and although it's horrible, you've got all of these feelings within you, you know, humans, we're not, we're not inherently bad people that we don't go out there to hurt people. It's just choices.

And I'm not suggesting that, you know, anything I did was right or justifying it, it was wrong. Blanket case wrong, I shouldn't have done it. But you you make these tiny decisions, you do these things, things aren't working.

It's, it's, it's more than just we shouldn't have done that. And that was it. It's the little decisions.

But yes, I shouldn't. And I think that's so important to highlight is that is it, it's not a binary thing. It's not just this one day, I'm not one day I am, it is these small steps, these gradual things, there's, and it is, it can be a failure in the relationship on one extent to, you know, on one side of the equation, and then it can be some shiny, another theoretical shiny penny or shiny bright light on the opposite side through, you know, in may manifest through the form of an affair partner, let's say, and whether that be emotional or physical, or whatever the dynamics doesn't really matter that much.

It's that point where there's that, that boundary that's been crossed, that, you know, where an element of secrecy is required to be able to maintain that kind of relationship. But so I'm thinking like, from the perspective of someone who has been betrayed, one of the common thoughts is like, well, how could they do that to me? If they love me? How could they possibly do that to me? And I have my own understanding of why that I help people understand that. But I'm just wondering, from your perspective, like, what would you say to someone who has that very question? How could you do that to your husband if you loved him? Yeah, yeah.

It's not that simple, is it? Because it's not just that one moment of, well, screw you, I don't love you. And that's it. And you do that horrible thing.

And then it's almost that middle finger up to them. People think that it's that personal attack against them. It's not against them.

It's not that personal attack. It's not that middle finger to them. It's not that screw you.

It's that I'm not getting, you know, I've tried so much, or I feel like I've tried so much to help and to change this. I'm not getting anywhere. I'm banging my head against the wall.

An opportunity arises. Again, you make split second decisions. And you do something.

And even straight after, you probably think, I should not have done and you feel horrible and horrendous. And so like the worst person on the on the planet, you really do, because you know that that will hurt that other person. But again, you as a human, you needed something to be fulfilled.

You needed a gap, a void or something. You needed to feel loved. You needed to feel wanted.

You needed to feel like you matter, like somebody wants to be with you. So that almost not having that and then having that over rules is a bigger emotion than I'm going to hurt this person if I do this sometimes. I mean, thank you.

I think thank you first of all for just being so vulnerable, because I know how uncomfortable it can be to share your story on any topic like this. And it doesn't matter which side of the infidelity fence that that we fall. I really appreciate that.

And I know the listeners will appreciate it, too. It's from my observations to all the people I've worked with through my own experience and to hundreds, if not thousands of conversations that I've had over the years, that's fairly it's fairly consistent in the sense that it's never or very, very, very rarely done to hurt the person who has been betrayed. It almost has nothing to do with them in a lot of ways.

It's not really about them. It's about what you're feeling and what you're thinking, what you're experiencing. And, you know, as humans, we tend to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

And if everything that we're associating within the primary relationship is uncertainty, discomfort, lack of communication, banging your head against a brick wall, don't know how to move forward, a little element of isolation, particularly and loneliness. And again, like you say, this is not just a vacation. It's about understanding.

It's about recognising that you, like everybody else, are just a human being and you have emotions and you are driven by your emotions. Everything we do is because of how we think it's going to make us feel. It's all with that hope that the future is going to be better and we're going to move towards something more positive and away from something negative.

And, you know, we've all been in situations where we react in a moment where something happens and we react to it. You know, we can react through anger. We can react through joy.

We can react through surprise. And to an extent, these, particularly where opportunities exist, where they arise, then actually a similar kind of emotional dynamic can occur. So again, thank you.

So moving forward. So what happened after this? So you had an affair. Was it physical, emotional? What was the, you have to go into detail, of course, but and what happened next? So it was very short lived.

It wasn't like a long affair. There wasn't it wasn't drawn out. And then we were on a dog walk one day.

And yeah, he confronted me because my phone had been tracked. So I did get caught out that way. And yeah, I feel like that's the first time we ever really properly communicated with each other because we had to.

We're at that point in the fork in the road that you're like, well, everything's got to come out now, hasn't it? So yeah, it all came out. And I think divorce is probably one of the worst things that you could probably go through. I feel like you're not only confronting your own demons, are you confronting theirs? And it's like the dynamic of the two humans trying to navigate the worst time in their lives and and separate their lives.

So we we discussed it and we chatted about it through lots of anger and all of the horrible, difficult conversations that you've got to have. And we did decide that, you know, we weren't we weren't actually very aligned anymore and wanted to continue the relationship anyway. And again, I think that's from me being in the military when we met to the person that I was outside of the military five years later.

And it was I was a very different human and I'd grown a lot and I'd changed a lot. And it was probably too much for somebody who hadn't gone through the huge changes to sort of work with. And did we want the same things out of life, actually? Did we want the same things? Were either of us happy? No.

Did we want the same things anymore? Do we see the same future happening for us both? No. Then actually, a fair or no affair, we probably shouldn't be anymore. Yeah.

So we did decide to get divorced. And obviously, we had to live in the house while we were selling the house. And that was a few very uncomfortable months again.

And just navigating being in the same space with somebody that, you know, while all of that is going on, is really difficult. But you do it, you get through it, you need to. And then you go your separate ways.

So now, you know, this was two years ago now, nearly coming up to two years later, you know, we're both in very different places. And actually now we we do communicate now we talk now we've got dogs, so not children. Luckily, there's no children involved.

But we have got dogs. And he comes and sees the dogs. And, you know, I'll, I'll go down and drop them off with him and stuff.

So we cross paths now we we talk together. Not still not the deepest conversations that two humans have probably ever had. But, you know, we're it's nice to know that he's doing all right, and everything else.

So yeah, and he's moved on. I think he's got a partner now as well, which is really lovely. So what about you? How did you move from that? What's changed in your life since since then? Yeah, so I took a real deep dive after that happened.

And I moved into my own house. Everything changed. I moved locations, I moved into my own house.

And I got coaching, actually, because I was really struggling to let go of what had happened. And then also to move forward from that. So I wanted some, I wanted to, I don't know what you call it with cope, but I wanted to wanted to understand more of my own thought process for why I acted like I did why I did it, what I wasn't happy about, I really wanted to go within and see what wasn't working for me before that made me go and do that.

So that I can then learn and release that and then moving forward, then okay, how does a relationship need to look for me in the future, if I choose to have one? Because obviously, anything that you go through is is a learning curve, isn't it? It's a huge learning curve. And if you can take the time to look within and to really examine it and see why you did those things, again, not justifying it to yourself, but this is why I did these things in a future relationship, I need that. I think when you get into a future relationship, you'll be a lot better equipped to not make the same decisions and the same mistakes.

Yeah, like you said, because you weren't taught how to do those things in the first place. And it's kind of a shame in many ways. I've shared this on the podcast multiple times where it sometimes takes a significant life event, and it can be anything, it doesn't have to be infidelity, but some major life event that really makes you stop, take stock, look in the mirror, reflect, understand, you know, acknowledge that actually the only person who can really do anything about how you think and feel is you.

And that magic silver bullet, that shiny object in the distance, it doesn't really exist, first of all. And even if it did, it wouldn't actually fix the problem. It's short lived, it's quick fix, it's dopamine hits, it's not delayed gratification.

And then we become, well, it's opening in so many ways. And it really allows growth, which certainly from my perspective, I think growth, just as a human race as a species is something that's essential. It's the only reason we're kind of where we are now is because people always push the boundary in terms of like, well, what can we do? What can we achieve? What can we build? What can we make? How can we deepen? How can we get more intelligent? How can we learn more? And I don't see any reason why that shouldn't exist across everybody's lives.

But as you described before, it's so easy to be in a situation where you're almost stagnant, where you're dissatisfied. Everything's like, not great, but not terrible. And it's not kind of bad enough to do anything about it.

It's something that, again, I think I've mentioned this, it's a thing called the region beta paradox. I'll put some links in the show notes. But this idea that actually things have to become bad enough before you actually kicked into action to do something about it.

And sometimes it takes a betrayal, even if it's something that you've carried out yourself, to really reflect back on yourself. And there is an element of, did I do that to create that force point? It's a good question. I mean, what do you think? Was it a cry for help? I know it sounds like a strange thing to say given the context, but even if it's a self cry for help.

Yeah, yeah. And maybe not a cry for help, but let's move this to the point where it needs to either get fixed or broke. Like, we're not going to do anything unless anything bad happens.

Do I take it to the extreme? Not that you're really, you're not sat there thinking that. How far can I take this to? You're not thinking that, but maybe subconsciously there is an element of that. I don't know.

Can you think of a reason as to why you didn't just, because again, this is something I hear a lot. I remember it's something I remember thinking as well in my own situation. It's like, well, why didn't she just come and tell me that we weren't OK and actually maybe this wasn't working and either just agree to disagree and go our separate ways or to try and figure out how to solve it.

What do you think it was that prevented you from doing that? I think it's, again, it's that make everything look like it's perfect on the outside. Everything is perfect. Everything's fine.

I've got that person within the military. I've got that husband who's my, you know, in all intents and purposes and paper is that perfect husband. You know, he's a pilot in the Air Force.

How amazing. We've got this beautiful country home and two beautiful dogs. And isn't life just perfect? And almost keeping up with.

That, you know, everything is perfect. Yeah, I think if if we talk about this and if we discuss this, maybe isn't perfect and then we do have to break up and divorce and then your world gets chucked upside down. So, yeah, I don't know.

Maybe it was keeping up with that and just the communication side of it. If you've never had a relationship from the start or cultivated open communication within your relationship, how do you begin seven years later to discuss the worst thing that you could potentially discuss? If you're not doing it sort of from the beginning or you've learned to somewhere along it when when it gets to that crucial moment, you're probably already too late. It's too late.

Yeah. But what I do love nowadays is, you know, this was this was 2003 thinking when she joined the military, this was keep everything inside. This was, you know, 2018 pre-pandemic has make everything look perfect.

And what I do like now and why I wanted to come on here personally was because more people are talking about this. More people are teaching about this. More people are opening up so that other people don't have to keep it in or they feel like they've got permission to share and chat and open up conversation.

This is the world that we're living in now is very let's discuss our feelings and our emotions and let's communicate and let's try and cultivate a way where we can communicate. And people are teach like yourself, people are teaching people how to do that. So I think we're we're at a good point now where, you know, this can just keep getting better and better and better for people.

And the more people that share their story and maybe openly talk about it from both sides, you know, again, it's that keeping up with being perfect, isn't it? I was really nervous to come on here and speak about this before because I'm not perfect, everyone. Oh, my goodness. I'm saying this publicly.

I am not perfect human. Right. So that's really difficult for us to say.

But who is? And by us sharing it, that gives other people permission to not be as perfect and to maybe have these difficult conversations that we wouldn't have before. Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting.

We think about that. So you described almost like the identity of 2003 Kaz and then 2018 Kaz. And now we're looking as we're sat here, I'm talking 2024 version of Kaz.

It's like if she was having a conversation with, let's say, the 2018 version, you know, what would you what would you tell her? What would you what would you say to her in the room with her now? Speak up, start, start, you know, sharing if something's not right, start speaking up about it. I feel like she she thinks she would have shattered everything instantly by just sharing that she's maybe not happy right now. But it's not that she's not happy right now and everything's gone to pot.

It's that she's not happy right in this moment because of whatever. Can we do something to change that? Can we fix that? It's not a bad thing to speak up about. You know, it's ironic as well that the fear of, like you say, the fear of shattering, you know, I don't say anything, I don't do anything, I don't change this perfect world that I perceive to be in or that I'm portraying to the world.

Yet, having a affair is literally like about the about the most effective way of shattering something that you can, you know. It's so typical human behaviour in so many ways. And it's just like, oh, my God, what are we doing? You know, you do that and not have to talk to the other person in a way.

You know, why is this so hard to say? Why are words so difficult to say? But doing something like that? I think I think it comes back to, I suppose, in many ways, you know, we've kind of evolved as humans to not be ostracised from the group. You know, it's important that we have a supportive community around us. It's important that we have friends and family and people that we can rely on and care for and be cared for by.

And I think when we are truly vulnerable and like to the point where we are exposing parts of us that we feel shame ourselves, you know, we're embarrassed of our own inner thoughts and our own inner feelings. It can become terrifying to think, well, if that's what I think about myself, just imagine what they would say. Just imagine what they would think of me.

Is that a risk I'm worth, you know, prepared to take? And for many people, it's just too frightening. The reality is, actually, when people are vulnerable, open and honest in a safe and controlled way, actually, it's probably the one one of the most empowering things that you can do, because you are connecting. And this is actually ironically, everything that was potentially missing from or at least some part that was missing from your relationship in terms of the communication and the connection was the lack of vulnerability that both of you potentially were prepared to put forward.

And what's really funny about all of it that I've learned since as well, is that it's not ever actually about the other person. He could never make me feel certain things anyway, even if I didn't feel loved, and I didn't feel cherished, or whatever, whatever. The only person that can make you do that is yourself as well.

So again, when you go alone, and it's so scary, you probably don't want to have those conversations, because then it might lead to divorce, you've got to go on your own. And like you say, it's that community, you're being ripped up by, you know, you're not with a support system anymore, you're going out on your own, it's scary, it's hard. But actually, when you do, and you do that, you realise how much you are the only person that can give you all of those things.

And even if you are in a marriage and a relationship in the future, there's still be times where the other person will not be able to fill that void for you, you have to do it to yourself. And you have to fill that void yourself. So isn't it so interesting? And I think with the with an affair as well, potentially, it's less scary, because if you have that conversation, you go it alone, on your own, you are on your own.

Whereas almost with an affair, there's another person, so you've got someone to hug you and tell you it's going to be all right, still, even though, you know, it might not continue, you might not continue. It's a very new thing anyway, isn't it? So you haven't got that security. There is that other person as that.

There's an element, there is an element, something sometimes referred to as an affair bubble, where you're able to sort of blinker out all of the, the reality is kind of the wrong word, but all the problems in your life are blinkered, because you're focused only on this other person. For the moment, whatever that looks like, and there's an element of safety in that it's like, you feel you actually feel like you do have a connection, and actually, you'll be okay, or somehow you'll get through it, or somehow you'll figure it out. Even if you were to actually sit down and rationally look at it for more than about six seconds, you'd realise that maybe it probably wasn't the most stable of plans.

And I'm not saying I mean, obviously, there are definitely there are cases where people have affairs, and then they remain in relationships with the affair partners and get married and have kids and live happily ever after. And that does exist, you know, but it's not common. Yeah, for most people, that's not how it plays out.

And most affairs, even if the relationship does continue for a while after the primary relationship or marriage has broken down, that relationship doesn't usually last. Okay, so where you are now, what is it that where are you focussing your energy now? How have you been through the pain of the separation and the divorce and sort of refinding yourself and discovering who you are in many ways and creating this new identity, this new version of yourself? Which of course, is going to bring on a lot of the past as well, of course, I'm not saying you've erased all of that, but how are you moving forward in life now? Yeah, so I feel like I just spent time getting to know what I like and enjoy again, because it military beforehand, I hadn't really had that period of time to myself in between leaving the military and being in a relationship with someone to fully understand that yet either. So now it's all about what do I want to do? What do I want to do? What do I enjoy doing? I am so lucky to have randomly bought a house where I've bought a house because I have things so close by now that I absolutely love to do.

I have golf down the road, I've got a gym next door, the classes are amazing, it makes me feel energised, it makes me feel a part of something. I thrive off of people, so I need to be in that people space, which is again made me learn that maybe the countryside house was not the right thing to do back then. But again, you learn more about what makes you you and what makes you feel good and what brings you joy.

So you can do more of that. At the moment, I'm just focussing on anything that makes me happy and puts a smile on my face. And along that path and throughout that, I'll potentially find someone at some point maybe to go into a future relationship with armed now with more knowledge about making it better from the start, making it more open, communicating more, communicating my needs a bit more as well, and not giving up any part of me.

So not giving up for the other person, this will be an addition and we'll make it work alongside of our lives without either one of us giving up the bits that make us happy. I think that's such a beautiful way to put it. And I think if two people can come together where they feel secure and fulfilled, and self sustaining in many ways within themselves, then when they get into a relationship with somebody who is in a similar place, then actually, everything's just like an embellishment.

It's an addition, it's a bonus, it's a cherry on top, it's that then you can do something that some people sometimes get stuck on the idea that, oh, well, if I'm taking responsibility for myself, and they're taking responsibility for their self, then it's like, well, why do we need each other? And it's like, well, no, that that's actually where the real magic happens. And of course, because there's always going to be days, you know, we fluctuate on a daily basis, you know, our moods change all the time, depending on who we're with, and what we're doing, and what we're focussing on, and what we're anticipating, or what's just happened, you know, all of these things are affecting our moods. So we are not this like constant, we are not the same thing all the time.

And when you're with somebody, even if you are secure and stable in your own mindset, and your own, you know, identity, you still fluctuate. And there are going to be days where you aren't, you know, 100%. But that's where the secure partner comes in and sweeps you up and vice versa.

And that dynamic is sort of evolves, and you can still have your very specific roles within the relationship. If you want to use a more traditional sort of masculine, feminine dynamic, then that all can still exist. But it can be done in such a more beautiful way, and such a more constructive way, and much more fulfilling way as well.

Well, thank you, Kaz. It's been an absolute pleasure. And thank you for coming on, being vulnerable and sharing your story.

And I know it will have landed in some people's minds, and they'll be able to recognise themselves in your story. And maybe even just learn a little bit from your perspective, particularly those who have been betrayed, have that reinforcement that it's, although a very, very painful experience to be betrayed, it's not necessarily about you. It's, it's often more complicated.

And just understanding and knowing that does, or at least it can release a bit of pressure and help you walk a little bit more lightly as you navigate your path to healing from infidelity. Thanks. And for being so wonderful to get me to share this as well, because it's not an easy subject to share.

So no, thanks for holding space for that. Absolute pleasure. So what was your key takeaway from that conversation with Kaz? There were several things that came up for me.

One in particular was that so many of us feel that the solution exists externally, that there's something better somewhere else, whether that's in another person, another belonging, a new job, a new house, a belief that this idyllic country cottage in the, you know, in the, in the countryside outside of the military setting would fix all the problems, when really the most effective solution would have been to have the conversation. But of course, that's not easy, as Kaz has highlighted. It's very difficult to have conversations, particularly if that's something that you've just never done.

We are not taught how to be in relationships, not really. We kind of figure it out. We learn from our parents, we learn from the people and our peers in our lives.

And we try and just work it out. I've used examples in the past where sometimes you can feel like you're struggling as a couple. So you look externally, you look at the people across the road, you look at your friends, you look at your family, and you see what they're doing.

And then you try and make your judgement and your assessment based on that. But the problem is that there's a quite a high likelihood that they're sat in their houses, having the same problems, looking back at you, trying to figure out how it is that you're doing it, and then trying to make the adjustments accordingly. And that's often how we learn.

We're not taught that really a relationship is predominantly our thoughts about the other person. We have far more control over our experience within any given relationship. And it might sound like I harp on about this on the podcast, but it's so true.

And it's because I recognise how free you can be when you're not dependent on another person's actions to make you feel something, whatever that feeling is, even if it is just content. But especially when it's things like love. And when we start to use other people's or our perception of other people's love towards us as a weapon against ourselves, so that we can not even allow ourselves to love ourselves and see our own worth, then that's pretty devastating.

And it can leave us trapped. And we will the years will tick by. And there may or may never become a point where we have the opportunity to do something about it.

I can assure you, however, that simply by listening to these podcast episodes and things like it, you are already a significant step ahead. But learning is only one part of the equation. It's the implementation that ultimately makes the difference.

And for many of us, in this situation, we've had some significant life event. This has created a possibility, a catalyst, if you like, for significant change. And although when you first embarked on this journey of trying to figure out and learn all about infidelity, I would imagine that for many people, we were trying to figure out how we change our partner, how we get them to do something differently, when actually the real power lies within how you can do things differently and how you can show up and how you can change yourself, which will improve all of your relationships, regardless of the outcome of the current situation you're in.

If you'd like to explore what working together looks like, so that I can help you move this move along this journey more effectively, more efficiently, with some guidance, then I highly recommend that we talk. You can visit my website, lifecoachluke.com. You can also contact me directly. You can email me at luke at lifecoachluke.com or if it's more comfortable for you, any social media channel that I'm on, Facebook, Instagram, again, you're more than welcome to reach out there.

The links are in the show notes, as always, but you can search My Life Coach Luke on any of the social media platforms and I'm sure you'll be able to find your way to me if that's something that you'd like to explore. So, thank you to CAS and thank you for listening and I look forward to speaking to you all again next week.