76. Addicted to an Affair with David Essel

Betrayal often leaves us feeling like victims of someone else’s choices, but what if part of the healing involves confronting our own inner patterns? In this episode, I sit down with David  Essel, whose journey through infidelity, mental health struggles, and addiction gives him rare insight into what keeps people stuck and how to break free.

We dig into the traps of victim mindset, the weight of past resentments, and how radical honesty, vulnerability, and communication can rebuild connection. We also tackle taboo topics like intimacy, porn addiction, and reclaiming self-trust. If you're ready to move past shame and truly transform your relationships, this conversation is for you.

Key Takeaways:

• Release the victim story; you have the power to rewrite your narrative beyond betrayal.

• Clear past resentments to free up emotional space and begin fresh with yourself.

• Open, honest communication, especially around intimacy, is foundational to rebuilding closeness.

• Addiction (including porn) often signals unmet internal needs; healing starts with awareness.

• Embrace self‑healing first; only when your inner world is stable can relationships truly flourish.

💬 Reflection Questions:

What resentments or shame are you still carrying, inside or outside your current relationship? How might radical honesty change your dynamic?

Connect with Luke:

• Website: www.lifecoachluke.com

• Instagram: @mylifecoachluke

• Email: luke@lifecoachluke.com

Join the After the Affair community at www.facebook.com/groups/aftertheaffaircommunity

Episode Transcript:

The After The Affair podcast with me Luke Shillings is here to help you process, decide and move forward on purpose following infidelity. Together we'll explore what's required to rebuild trust not only in yourself but also with others. Whether you stay or leave I can help and no matter what your story there will be something here for you.

Let's go! Hello and welcome to another episode of The After The Affair podcast. This is where we spend time really trying to navigate that intricate journey of healing and rebuilding after betrayal. I'm your host Luke Shillings and today in episode number 76 I sit down with the exceptional public speaker David Essel.

In this compelling episode David shares his profound insights on shedding the victim mindset and the transformative power of clearing past resentments. David isn't just a thinker he lives through the very challenges that we discussed from grappling with his own betrayal to an affair that haunted him with guilt and shame. David's story is one of facing adversity head-on.

He talks candidly about his suicide attempt in 1990 which reshaped his understanding of mental health and how his struggle with anxiety, depression and ADHD deepened his compassion and his drive for success across various paths as an author, radio and TV host. But this episode isn't just about looking inward. David and I delve into the vital role of open honest communication in relationships especially around intimate and often taboo subjects like physical intimacy and betrayal of course.

David shares practical advice on how to reintroduce passion and connection drawing from his work with couples and highlights the impact of porn addiction on relationships. We also examine the broader societal narratives that shape our understanding of introversion and the value of simplicity and solitude in a world that often values noise and busyness. Through it all David offers a beacon of hope to those willing to change and underscores the bravery of seeking help.

So as I ask you to join us as we dive into this enlightening conversation with David Essel please ask yourself are you ready to let go of past pains and embrace a path of sincere communication and self-discovery because this episode will challenge you to do just that. So let's go. Okay hello David and welcome to the After The Affair podcast.

Thank you ever so much for joining us today. It is just after Christmas as we record this and it might be a few weeks before you guys are listening to this wonderful conversation between me and David. I'd love to ask you David to introduce yourself and just give us a little bit of understanding of what you do and how your journey has evolved over the course of your professional career.

Oh Luke and it has evolved dramatically. I mean to think that I'm doing what I'm doing right now you know I started in 1979 so quite a long time ago you know 44 or 45 years now or something like that and the evolution of my own life has been really quite fascinating. My strength and my go-to as a kid and in college was basketball so I played several years at a major university Syracuse University here in the United States and and got my degree in sports psychology and thought I'd be working with athletes my whole life and after 10 years you know and this is just a fact of life I got bored you know I needed more stimulation so I started opening myself up and started working with couples and relationships and then started working in the world of addiction which I come from the world of addiction so it's a perfect place for me to be.

The world of mental health you know I had a failed suicide attempt in 1990 and even as a counsellor we are not immune to the pressures of life and stresses of life but one of the beautiful things that came out of that if you can say beautiful things can come out of failed attempts is you know an understanding of the power of mental health and you know it's the buzzword these days but you know I was woken up quite dramatically in 1990 you know when my psychiatrist looked at me and said you know I don't care about your success I don't care where you live I don't care about how many people know you and blah blah blah he goes I just need to tell you this one thing is you've got to really get your act together you know you don't understand what's going on in your brain now here's something interesting Luke and a lot of people fall victim into this now I'm you know probably older or on the edge of older for your audience but in the 50s you know and we didn't look at kids with mental health issues you know I remember going to the doctor's office in 1959 it was about and I was a young little kid and the doctor was smoking it was very common back then for doctors actually smoke while they were with their patients you know just craziness right but they had no understanding of mental health with children depression anxiety PTSD of course ADD ADHD was not even talked about back then so all they kept doing from the 50s through the 60s was telling my parents I had allergies wow I see and so my parents would go well we'll do everything we can for his allergies but outside of that and you know I was extremely irritable I was extremely impatient I was you know and it's all the signs of anxiety depression PTSD I mean I had all the signs back then Luke but they didn't have an idea so even after I graduated in counselling and became an all-faith minister and all these other wonderful wonderful titles right I still could not diagnose my own self like we can't really diagnose our own selves to the degree that we need to you know so I'm going along using alcohol and other things to numb my anxiety numb my depression numb the ADD numb the ADHD and it was successful for a number of years until it wasn't. Did you feel you were different? Oh my god extremely you know my level of sensitivity is off the charts Luke it always has been and that was one of the things my parents had a hard time with you know because I had an older sister and a younger brother that were pretty normal and then they have this whackout kid in the middle right that I mean everything I took personally I was so sensitive you know if someone made the slightest comment about you know the way I played basketball or my hair or something you know I took everything really personally now that can be a sign of high anxiety that can be a sign of even a low-grade depression you know where that you're just struggling to find yourself and your brain chemistry isn't working the way now here's something interesting Luke that I'll tell you you know my I am extremely different and we've written 15 books now we've got our 15th book just came out you know I have no background in literature I've no background in journalism you know 35 40 years as a radio and tv host I have no background in broadcast journalism you know I mean when we look at a lot of the things I do I have no experience right and but what I do have is the ability to take risks I have the ability to tap into my own gifts and I will tell you that the gifts of writing and the gifts of journalism and the good gifts of tv and radio hosting and all that were gifts to me because I never had to work at them I had to get where I had to work to get better Luke of course you know as a radio host podcast host tv host I had to continue to to push my craft to get better as an author you know something fascinating first book that I wrote it was a year and a half long took me it was around 1993 94 about a year and a half to write it my last five books I have written in two days each okay well that's quite that's quite yeah confidence boosting for me I'm actually in the process of writing my first book and I mean I don't know idea how long it's going to take and I'm not even giving myself a deadline if you like 2024 let's leave it right right right and that's fine yeah you know it's fine but what what happened over the years is that in the process of writing I've been writing I think for 25 years now or something like that in the process of writing I just kept trusting my gut and you know I started I and I never liked to type so up until probably book number 10 it was all handwritten I would hand write the whole book give it to my assistant she would type it up give it to the editor you know it was all that process and then what I found over the years and we teach this now is that we teach how to write a book in 30 days the most crucial part of a book and people who write books know this and people who don't write books may not know this is the outline above and beyond everything in the world that you could do for a book the number one mistake that authors make is they get a great idea they'll jot down a few thoughts and then they'll go write the book and then they hit what's called writer's block in my world Luke there is no such thing as writer's block writer's block says I was not prepared that's what writer's block says if you hit writer's block that means your outline isn't strong enough isn't good enough so what I do now to write a book is I'll take the first 28 days and every day I'll spend about 15-20 minutes working on an outline that's it I don't spend any more than 15-20 minutes what's the the working title name of the book how many approximate chapters 10 okay let's throw it what's going to be chapter 1 let's come up with a title and let's put in two or three stories or two or three statistics or two or three studies what's chapter 2 chapters so I take 28 days to break it down so that then when I and I don't even I don't do anything but use this iPhone yeah and I pull up an email I hit the speaker button and I look at my outline and I go chapter 1 the world is grieving we're hitting things that we've never seen at the same time before all at once the American Psychological Association recently came out with a study a survey and you've got to pay attention because this is what this whole book is about and then I don't you know so I all I have to have is my 10 points per chapter and I go through one point to the next and within 48 hours the book is completely done you know so Luke when you say are you different yes you know I'm an introvert I am an extrovert in my career but the second I'm done I love being alone that's really interesting sorry sorry to put in but it's just again there's this sort of there's a parallel that I'm seeing and it's always intrigues me individually as well I mean I'd love to have a separate conversation about the book but obviously for the context of our podcast however I am interested in what leads you to drive to do the things you do and I'm also I would I would say that I'm on the introvert side I wouldn't say I'm full but I'm definitely on the introvert side and I feel like I am drained of energy when I'm in large groups of people rather than charged up by them and I like very much like time on my own but then I also find myself setting myself certain tasks and projects and goals and things and I'm quite driven when it comes to to those things and I have my own answers in my own mind but I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are particularly for yourself as to as to why like you say you felt a little bit different but yet most of the things that you've delved into have been successful despite a arguably lack of experience leading into that thing. We all have these incredible gifts that a lot of times we're well as a matter of fact I just did a post on on social media the other day and I said you know when I was a kid I was told that I did not have a creative bone in my body and so I became a jock you know as an athlete and I became very good as an athlete but I found out at 30 that I have this outrageous hidden creative talent loop that I take no credit for this is a gift you know whether it's from God or planet X I don't know but you know it's a gift because when you do things and you don't have to think that's called a gift you know when you automatically are drawn towards X that's a gift and so when I first and you know it was funny it was I was 30 years old and I had an assistant and she had two little kids and she would bring her kids over and they would play while she's doing work for me and I then I would play with the kids I've never had my own but I helped raise four children and and she said my god you are so good with kids you're so good with storytelling why don't you write a book and I looked at her I said write a book what are you crazy I have you know some kind of a degree in English literature or whatever and she goes well I don't know but I think at some point you should write a book well that ended up becoming my second book but she's the one that spurred me on to think that wow she thinks I'm creative and at 30 it's the first time someone said I think you're creative and you could do something outside of the world of physical you know and then Luke that opened up a whole world now let me tell you something one of the reasons that that we have so much confusion over introversion extroversion etc is that extroverts are highly prized in all societies and that's a problem because there's a lot of extroverts that are idiots and so sorry to be so real but I'm just gonna be really real you know that the squeaky wheel gets the oil right so you know we've got these extroverts out there you know screaming their their philosophies they're this they're that and so when you're you have that type of I'll say courage I'm not gonna say confidence because they may not have confidence a lot of people that are screamers and yellers have zero little confidence at all but they have the courage to go out there and to try to make a name or to stir things up or whatever it might be you know that that's the type of extrovert that I would want to be away from but they are heralded in society you know those people with you know maybe they have great master of the English language they may not be giving out good information but maybe they're really good at the way they speak they pronounce their words perfectly or whatever it might be so they're great extroverts but unfortunately the opposite the introvert has been sort of shoved into the corner where us introverts love to be by the way you know but we're not heralded for our quietness we're not heralded for our love of nature and our ability to sit in nature without any kind of electronic stimulation and be at peace you know like like people don't look at that as a strength these days and yet it's one of the most important strengths we could ever gain is to do more things away from electronics get away from the phones ipads tvs radios the whole nine yards we need more space for our heads to be calm and one of the greatest things that we're doing right now is that we're spending all kinds of time on this very topic loop you know trying to get people to slow down um when if I look at and this is going to sound strange but if I look at one of the biggest problems in the world today that comes in with every client that I have is overthinking we've become a society of you know just people that are bouncing multitasking is overthinking um multitasking is heralded and it's probably one of the worst things in the world that we could herald just like extroversion is heralded and it's one of the worst things that we should do you know when when we when we herald extroversion and we put down introversion the introverts become more introverted and they become less confident less filled with confidence and self-esteem so you know I want to bring this up this point is so important um because you know you can get all the fill in the world you need during your work day during whatever and then take time for your brain to be calmed you know take time away from electronics um the agitation in the world is crazy and I also tell people even though I'm involved with the media heavily every day with interviews like this you know I say unless you're listening to Luke and people like Luke that are doing podcasts to help individuals heal stay away from the news stay away from the podcasts that are you know arguing politics and vaccine conspiracy theories and all that nonsense you know our brains are just wrapped and they're and they're constantly being agitated and overthinking is coming from all these things I'm talking about Luke you know that's really interesting so there's there's two points one is that that you're right the overthinking certainly seems to be something that that happens a lot but then actually is it overthinking or is it overstimulation because the over the overstimulation which is like we're constantly demanding more information but whether it just be rubbish on social media or whatever it is but just input of some description and then it's not so much the overthinking but more the quality of thinking that we do as a result of that overstimulation so we're getting stuff from everywhere and then not being able to process it effectively so we kind of end up not moving forward at all and now there's and you're right there's been so many things I've been making notes as you've been talking I feel like I'm not gonna be able to go over them all because it's too many but one of the things you said was regarding the the extroverts we have the extroverts in society that are you know who shout the loudest it's probably the fairest way to put it and I think you know we see that again in all forms of well I suppose all forms of media outlet and I suppose that's why the the negative messages do so well because they're the ones that are being shouted the loudest they're making the most noise now it doesn't mean that the it doesn't necessarily mean that either the introverts or the extroverts are any better or worse or have more or less or anything even different it's just that the extroverts are the ones being heard and of course like anything that you get the Pareto distribution you get the the most extreme are the ones that get heard the most and and paints a very one-sided picture which is you know probably leads into all of the polarisation that we see across society as a whole which is right very very very very interesting and there's something I forget exactly how you'd said it but you know there was that shift when you were 30 I think it said you were when you wrote your first book is that right yeah yeah well that's when the idea came in to write the first yeah yeah so I'm just wondering like because obviously it said that there was the there's the lady had made the suggestion you're such a great storyteller and it was obviously all in there with you you know like you know it you you're that that natural ability that was obviously happening and you hadn't seen it and I'm sort of I'm trying to tie this in with the the idea of how we are labelled and the impact of being labelled as in all areas and when I when we bring this into the context of relationships well the same is true you know I get people come into into my my coaching practise and they will define themselves as the I don't know the overthinker or this or he's the lazy one or he's the this or she's the that or but again they're sort of they're already pre-describing pre-labelling their partners and then of course that's reinforced over time and then they live into that which then reinforces it further and then they kind of are correctly labelled yes they kind of created their own labels that's right so it's I'm interested because you broke free from your own idea of who you were at that point at least with the context of writing a book and I'm sure many other things in your life yeah what was the reason for like there must have been was there more to it than in your in your mind when that happened like what was it it's like oh I really can do this or what what was that shifting well I think a couple things you know I realised and we'll go back to invert introversion extroversion for a second here Luke you know I realised that I was drinking to be social it was the first time I woke up and said why you know I've been drinking for I started at 12 as an alcoholic actually and from 12 even playing basketball in division one college I was able to keep my addictions in full full force it's amazing what you can do in the world of addiction when you're that creative you know but when I finally broke through and and saw that I was drinking to be social I started realising that this wasn't the path for me you know being around people was not necessary my work I was around people all the time you know doing counselling sessions and speaking I didn't need anything else and so what was really interesting is that you know I started getting pushback from friends when they said how come you're not going out anymore you know and it was because I don't want to I get all of my energy needs from people that I'm trying to help to heal during the day and at nighttime I really want to be alone you know I became a voracious reader Luke oh my god I would go to bed you know early so just so I could read for two to three hours you know my life radically changed and I started to become more comfortable now one of the things the challenge that I had being a very public person people were always wondering why I wasn't at this networking event why I wasn't at this speakers conference why wasn't I here why wasn't there I don't even like to travel anymore you know I've created this what I think is a very cool life now would I be more well-known if I was back out on the speaker circuit could I sell more books if I was back out of the secret the speaker circuit sure I could but that's not David Essel anymore you know I'm not out there scrambling grinding doing all the things I did for so long Luke it just isn't me you know and and so I really like the quietness you know I just bought two coffee mugs one for the office and one for my home and it all it says is live simply and I think it's so beautiful you know when we work with clients we try to get all of our clients to take the first at least 30 minutes of the day electronic free you know no at least 30 minutes now I do an hour and a half but we ask people to do at least 30 minutes give your brain a break you know give your mind feed it good feel in the morning you know whether you're reading scripture or reading a motivational book or you're you're doing gratitude journaling or you're doing meditation or breathing techniques I mean you know use that first 30 minutes as a way to walk into the day with love it's called self-love when you walk into the day with self-love meaning you're taking care of your brain you know a lot of us have to get up earlier I remember my first mentor Richard Gerson rest in peace Richard Richard I still love you brother back in the 80s you know he would get up at 4 30 in the morning because the rest of the family didn't get up till 5 30 or 6 and he took that time for himself I mean I had I've had great role models Luke I'm phenomenal role models you know I have a buddhist sensei right now that I've been working with that has taken me deeper into the world of meditation buddhism etc than I've ever imagined I would go so you know like like I want to be even more simple and I am trying to encourage people you know when the tiny house movement started before COVID you know it was a huge huge thing and then then COVID blew it up for some reason I'm not sure but the simplicity of going back and cutting stuff out of our life giving the brain a break you know do we really need those new jeans do we need the purse do we even need the new freaking car for god's sake you know like asking yourself those questions instead of just going on automatic and going well it's three years and every three years I get a new car well is it necessary I mean I don't maybe it is you know I'm not I'm not judging anyone but but I would like people to start making better decisions with less in their lives and guess what the less you have to look over in your life the less stressful life becomes so I'm not saying give up your kids yet but you you can give up other stuff you know that that isn't isn't healthy at all yeah they're such powerful points David I really can't re-emphasise them enough now just moving on a little bit I know before we spoke I'd learnt a little about your backstory and that betrayal paid part of that what if you could perhaps share a little bit more about that and then we can move on from there yeah you know I think it's important that we look at both sides of the coin and people could say that what I'm going to say is unfortunate I don't look at that way at all I look at as fortunate I've been on both sides of the affair you know I have found my lover in bed with someone and it was extremely devastating and as a matter of fact it was at that time that she had been telling other people that I was in an affair we were having a tough time in the relationship so in our small town this is many many years ago you know I'm being branded I have the scarlet letter on me you know because and in actuality she was the one having the affair so you know that was really a wake-up call I mean to be scrutinised by society when you were innocent and your partner was the one doing what she was saying you were doing that was an extremely difficult time the relationship ended I will tell you something interesting that happened 30 years later because that happened a long time ago I was in my house and I got a call one night and I looked at my phone and this was in the late 90s I think and yeah probably late 90s and I saw a number I didn't recognise and I never pick up numbers I don't recognise and I just said what the heck I'll try and I said hello and there was just quietness and I said hello again and this woman's voice said this is someone from your past and I would like you to sit down I have something I want to share with you and I said okay I'm seated and she said I'm back when we were together and I was blaming you and tearing your name down all around the world as much as I could damage you I was the one having the affair you saw that you actually caught me and do you know that even after you caught me I still went around town saying it was you and I'm gonna ask the reason what was the reason for change and why so long later and also were you when the affair did happen we were you publicly known at that point oh god yeah okay and that's where the damage was you know it's like being a public figure can be really good and fun and it can be very dangerous you know there's it's always a yin and yang to everything Luke right and I'll take the the the public figure benefits much more so because I can help more people as a public figure than if I was just in a monastery somewhere you know I'm doing doing work with just you know the spirit but but you know our relationship was very troubled obviously and she took upon herself an opportunity because she wasn't getting her needs met I'm assuming that she just took it upon her responsibility to try to you know put the blame on me and to tear me down but the call was really fascinating because she went into great detail and she said you know I did this and I did this and I did this things I didn't even know you know that she went behind my back and did and and she said you know the only thing I can tell you is that I'm so sorry and if there's any chance in your heart to forgive me would you now we're talking 20 30 years later you know but I want to tell you something Luke I lost it I started crying so hard I I was crying so hard because justice had been served and I hadn't thought of her in all those years maybe a couple times but it was just like you know I know I just moved ahead but all of a sudden I felt like oh my god there's closure now I can come to closure on my own at the end of a relationship we teach people how to come to closure on your own because trying to come to closure with an ex-partner is almost a ridiculous task it's gonna turn into a pissing contest in about 35 to 6 seconds it doesn't take long before someone says well the only reason I did that was because you did this and then there's no closure so we teach people how to come to closure so I had come to closure through my own exercises I didn't need her to reach out but when she did it was one of the most freeing things in the world to know you know and and not to go back and tell all these people that she lied I couldn't have cared less about that you know but for me to know that I was correct and I was innocent was absolutely beautiful but then I flipped it and a number of years later I was the one that had the affair and the pain of being in an affair wasn't enough for me to not have one against someone else which is absolutely stunning the pain I felt was so deep and yet I was willing to do that to someone else like that is so out of integrity that is so you know incorrect for someone to do whether you're me or whether you're Jim Smith and in Oklahoma it doesn't matter you know we just don't do that stuff you know and I carried that guilt and shame for at least a year until I went in and just did the work to clear it out and now I'm completely free about it obviously we're talking about it I'm not emotional about it I'm not on my proud of it no did I have I forgive myself yes you know I think regrets are important to have in order to work through them so that you're clear of the regret so you know when like I did a podcast recently saying you know it's okay to have regrets in life and my mom and dad died my mom three years ago my dad two years ago exactly about right now and they had four years of extreme pain in their passing they were in hospice for four years which is unheard of you never hear of people in hospice that long it was during kovat it was an absolute mess it was terrible I'm in Florida there in Syracuse New York but I have to tell you Luke you know after they died and now three years have gone by with my mother I realised and this is about two months ago that I do have regrets that I did not try my best during kovat to get up to see them more often that I did not do certain things and I admit my regrets for this reason first of all it's important to be real and to be filled with integrity number one and I'm real and I want to have even more integrity you know so to say that I have regrets and I could have done more and I didn't with my mom and dad is a fact now the second reason I say it is that I want everyone to think about their own lives and if you have regrets let's take care of them if you don't know how to hire a professional get someone to work you either listen we teach a process on how to forgive yourself we teach a process on how to forgive others we teach a process on how to let go of regrets and I've used all those processes on myself Luke you know because I'm a human being and I do and have made errors in the past so I think it's important you know that we get levelled with ourselves and in the world of affairs you know after the second one that happened where I was the one I went and worked with a therapist for about a year and I can tell you exactly when that was it was in 1997 and I said to her at the end of this year I am going to promise myself that I am NOT gonna have an affair on anyone for the rest of my life and I haven't and I will not but I got to the core of it you know and and some of the things that we find will go right back to childhood you know and I had an experience with my mother when I was very young that was not my mother's fault at all that I didn't know created this codependency with women but also a fear of intimacy with women okay so when you have fear of intimacy with women that means you have a fear of being open and honest so I couldn't say to a woman hey I love your breasts I love how big they are could you wear clothing to show them off more or I love your breasts I love them how small they are could you wear clothing to show them off more and I'm just being very direct here so when you when you're afraid to be real in intimacy when you're afraid you won't ever get what you want okay if you're afraid of you know let's say that your partner is not into oral sex and you say hey is there a way that we can start to talk about this more because you know I think it'd be really fun if we did if you're not willing to be real in an intimate relationship then you shouldn't be in that intimate relationship and because I was afraid to tell my partner that I maybe wanted to do something different intimately or I wanted her to wear different clothes because I was so afraid of being judged I was codependent as hell Luke I was afraid of being rejected I was afraid of being made fun of from these are just these things I'm talking about just normal interest of a man's life for God's sake just like women have different normal interest of a man's life but you know for me to be able to voice these things was something I couldn't do and the wildest thing is is that when I went through and and did the work and then I came out and I started to speak to women and I'm bringing up the concept of bodies and intimacy and sexuality because it's one of the most important things we need to talk about that our world is so afraid to freaking talk about and so you say to your partner you know hey I would like to try this are you open to that and whenever we talk to our partner about doing different things we should always start with something you that they do that that you love you know because I'm thinking about as you're talking about the physical attributes of the opposite sex and the taboo element that many people face I mean it's still a relatively taboo topic which seems insane really when we think about it given that we all here are here because of the action required to do it is the reality is it is and I'm thinking there's probably lots of people listening that is that whoa that's extreme that's like like so far out of my comfort zone I couldn't even imagine it so how do we bridge that gap so you've got because I mean I don't know I don't have the data but just from people that I know and people I've worked with I would imagine most people are not comfortable to have such direct conversations with their significant other especially if they've been with that partner for a long period of time and very significant patterns have formed whether that be six months six years or six decades there's you know they become you just you fall into a routine and so to go from you know that to the very direct is probably too big a leap so where do people start well the very first thing I'd say is get with a professional you know learn how to communicate about intimacy because we're not taught you know how to talk about sex we're not talking about how we're not taught how to talk about our needs or anything but when I work with couples what I do Luke's the very first thing I have them do is talk about what their partner does they love you know I love it when we're walking across the street and you grab my hand it makes me feel safe it makes me feel secure with you you know I love the way you French kiss oh my god you drive me crazy you know as a matter of fact I wrote a book on erotic intimacy and there was a story in there about this couple that have been together for a long time and they had tried all the different role plays and bondage and you name it they wanted more variety in their intimate life you know and the guy hires me as his intimate coach to you know to expand what can I do differently and I said to him the first day Luke I said how long do you guys French kiss for and there was like dead silence and I thought well that's weird I've never had any goes did you say I said how long do you French kiss where he goes we've been together 25 years I said please answer the question he said we don't he goes David he goes that's teenager stuff he goes we you know he goes you know what we'll kiss we'll kiss but he said you know we're just really and I said okay let's slow down Luke it's the cutest story in the world and I write about it in the book because it is such a great story he approaches his partner that night and she's expecting oh he just got off the call with this intimacy erotic counsellor and he's gonna come up with some kind of flying circus whatever you know thing and he looks at her and says honey when was the last time we French kissed and she said I don't have any idea why and he went to her and they and he said David he goes it was the best sex we've had in probably ten years he said we French kissed like we were kids in the back of the car he goes it was so erotic because we hadn't done it in so long you know so what we do is we start with what we like you know I like the way you do this I like the way you do that I like the way you do this and then we say hey would you ever have any interest in exploring this with me you know there's this organisation called the Sinclair Institute if you google it Sinclair Institute calm and they have intimacy exercises that wouldn't be considered pornography you know it's it's more sensual videos and that kind of stuff right now now here's here's and here's something you know one of the largest growing addictions in the world today is porn addiction I mean it is huge and we're doing more and more work with guys and women that are struggling with it a lot of it began you know with the pandemic of course people being locked down and everything else but let me tell you from a counsellor's point of view when you're afraid to talk to your partner about certain things going to porn is a very natural move you're not getting what you want you want more variety you want this you want that instead of talking to your partner people could become addicted to porn Luke and let me tell you something you put four to six months into porn your brain has been hijacked it has been rewired rewired completely when we have three men right now and one woman in our in our porn addiction recovery programme we do it all one-on-one but it's all six months to a year minimal of no porn with recovery work to get the brain chemistry back and I say six months and that's there it's usually about a year Luke that's how powerful that is but instead if we would just learn how to start at a low level as you said you know low level of intimacy talk I'd like to try this you know I'd like to make love to you with you when you have socks on your feet you know something non-threatening you know and she looks at you and says what do you mean socks on my feet you wacko but you know we we try to play and have fun and and and then gradually move up you know into because intimacy should change the longer you're together you know the boredom should not become a part of your intimate routine and so we want to shake it up and change it doesn't mean you have to go to S&M and all this other kind of insanity so I completely understand so what I wanted to so we've gone straight from this there's the direct link here that we're making between infidelity or betrayal and intimacy now of course you know I mean that's obviously a very important part of all relationships intimacy and intimacy you know we often say that trust is the foundation of all relationships but actually to an extent you know we could we could definitely intimacy is definitely in there in equal if not a combined so I'm interested in to to why you're you have given that so much emphasis in that that area particularly with regards to your own experience of betrayal on both sides of the coin so to speak so yeah yeah because it's communication okay that's why it's all about communication Luke you know without communication we don't have anything you know we say in our book love and relationship secrets that everyone needs to know that true intimacy is a very simple definition it's a hundred and ten percent honesty with your partner that's the deepest I heard something recently thinking about I forget who it was that that that said it but essentially that if you're with somebody if you're not prepared or if you don't feel comfortable talking to them about the thing that you're going to do sexually in the bedroom then you really shouldn't be doing it you don't know that person well enough to be well enough exactly yeah yeah you know and and when we look at honesty a hundred and ten percent honesty I mean if we had that we would not have affairs and you know an emotional affair is as damaging as a physical affair you know like that that kind of stuff is just nonsense and someone says well you know we didn't have sex and you know all we did was talk about you know our relationships and how we were both struggling and right there is betrayal you know the easy way to see it might be trained my partner if you're talking to someone of the opposite sex or if you're gay of the same sex you know would be if my partner was standing right here would I be having this conversation it's a great question to ask you know and and that'll give you the answer right away you know if you're honest with yourself don't BS yourself so for somebody who is either currently in a relationship where they're being they are being unfaithful or they are considering it there's even if it's just at a mental stage and maybe the other person don't there's no one actually literally involved it's more just in the mind but there's this possibility well what would you say to that person and and what choices do they have in that moment how would you how would you guide them from that perspective I would want to know the origin of their dissatisfaction I would want to know like you know why is it that they're looking outside what is it what are they missing inside what is not being done inside the relationship and first start with me you know what am I not doing if my partner is turning me down intimately sexually you know what am I not doing for him or her you know what we're triggered by different things right so a lot of women love service love men's up men of service you know we've heard this before a guy doing the dishes is one of the greatest aphrodisiacs for a woman ever a guy with a vacuum take that aphrodisiac and throw it up a hundred percent you know it's like we have different ideas and for a guy you know maybe seeing his woman in lingerie or whatever it might be you know we have different things that attract us and so we want to get on that page and figure out you know I mean the five love languages a book that was written in a long long time ago and now there's like 37 different versions of it like chicken soup for the soul for God's sake you know the the five love languages is not a bad place to start but we really do need to have a lot of conversation Luke that we're not having right now you know women even though most affairs are still done by men women are catching up and they have been catching up for years it's gonna continue to destroy families destroy children's futures you know divorce is horrendous whenever there's kids involved we do everything in psychotherapy that we can to keep the family together within reason of course if both couples are willing to change we can help a relationship heal and keep the kids together if there's no interest on one of the partners to change and then we're all pro-divorce you know we have very strong feelings about this we really believe that children get hurt worse than anyone when it comes to these type of things and so if parents can learn how to work through their issues they are now great role models for their children to say wow mom and dad were upset with themselves with each other for the last three or four months and now they seem to like each other again you know we want to see we want our children to see that relationships aren't perfect and that there can be struggle but we can if we do the right work with the right people overcome them and and the other thing Luke that we don't talk enough about you know when it comes to affairs especially from a male perspective is the the concept of adrenaline you know there's a lot of adrenaline released in the chase there's a lot of it you know I mean a tonne of it released in the chase men have been wired to chase you know ever since the beginning at a time so it's a natural thing but what we do with men if they have not had an affair or if they have had them in the past and they're trying to get away is how do we redirect that sexual energy and there's a thousand different ways to redirect that you know in the book Think and Grow Rich Napoleon Hill talks about redirecting sexual energy so that you can become a phenomenal salesperson because through studies they've shown that the top salespeople are those individuals with the top sexual energy that have learned how to aim it in a new direction so you know because of the fact that you're thinking of having affairs or a woman walks by and you're attracted to them hey that that can be an issue down the road if you don't take care of it now but why don't we see what that is and how can we redirect it in a more positive way not unlike drug addicts and alcoholics that are really good at manipulation and lying and stealing and cheating to get what they want we say to drug addicts and alcoholics let's take those tools that you've learned on manipulation and let's turn them into something positive you know because you have all of this creativity my god you've gotten away with being a heroin addict and then this is true story I have a heroin addict client from San Francisco an attorney she was a heroin addict working five days a week 60 hours a week and a full-blown heroin addict you know and we got her out of that and Luke you know what the greatest news in the world is I can say right now is that there is not an issue that I've ever seen that cannot be corrected with a person that desires to change you're sitting there with a hundred pounds isn't that so that's the key that's the want and I think coming back to you mentioned a couple of times in various different ways but ultimately it's been a point where you have acted on purpose with intention towards a specific goal I've as many of the listeners will know I've spoken before on previous episodes about the idea of the motivational triad this this primitive a sense that you know we are seeking pleasure avoiding pain and we're trying to conserve energy in the process now we think about that if we think about the betrayed partner who is at that point where they're either already betraying or thinking about betraying well overcoming that's pretty uncomfortable it means facing some demons it means having to be very vulnerable and expose themselves to to their loved ones and that's probably a place they don't really want to go whereas getting that dopamine here that adrenaline drive from you know getting the short-term pleasure in this case it might be sex or just physical connection or just some kind of intimacy outside of the primary relationship then naturally that's going to be where they're going to go because they're conserving energy it's the easiest thing to do it's easier to chase the pleasure than it is to deal with the discomfort so that's where there's there's two sides to this coin this one is the being very intentional about what we do and acting in a line with our own values being intact with integrity to ourselves but there's also that element of embracing the discomfort facing it head-on facing the demons acknowledging the regrets like you said before and then actually learning to forgive the choices that you have made even if they didn't at some point in time align with your values then or now that's right and Luke you know the average craving is about three and a half minutes long this is pretty fascinating you know when we work with sex addicts and nicotine addicts are the people that we usually put the clock on the most because they say oh my god there's no way it can only be three and a half minutes but but it's true and they both find at the end of three and a half minutes their mind has gone in another direction and they don't have the desire to act out to masturbate to have a cigarette whatever it might be so you know what one of the things we try to let everyone know and on this programme you know is that patients you know like yeah if you are a heavy drinker if you're heavy in regards to being a sex addict or whatever it might be that's getting you in trouble there will be cravings there will be withdrawal there will be all those kind of things but the good news on your side is that those cravings will last about three and a half minutes maybe four minutes max and you can move through it now the only thing I'm going to say is don't count on that every time because there will be times where that you will crash and you'll act quicker than the three and a half or four minutes is up so make sure I'm going to go back again look you know in the world of addiction I carried my own addiction I was healing all these freaking people I could not heal myself so I don't care how smart you think you are I don't care how wise you think you are if you have an addiction and you haven't cleared it up by now you probably will never clear it up by yourself and that is a true statement I could not get through the stuff I got through the failed suicide attempt my addiction to alcohol I could have never gotten through that stuff by myself I tried it never worked until I finally got vulnerable and raised my hand and said yeah even as a counsellor I need help even as of this I need help it's it's a brave move to make Luke and it's one we're seeing a tonne more I'm getting oh my god we're getting more men reaching out in the last three to four years than I can say in the 43 years we've been doing this work they are coming out of the woodwork and for every guy that's reaching out to a coach a counsellor a therapist good for you congratulations we need you to do that to be role models for other men that need help too absolutely I couldn't say it better myself and I think that's actually a very good place to finish so just before we go David if you'd like to either have any final words that you could offer to the listeners and if there's how people could reach you and you know follow you I know you've got a wealth of information over the course of your career and yeah sharing obviously I'll pop everything in the show notes as well of course fantastic Luke yeah I mean we give away a tonne of stuff at the website if you go to the website talk David comm there's four books you can get for free right now we have 2,600 motivational videos absolutely free and the link is right on the homepage at talk David comm there's blogs there I have three four hundred blogs I don't know what it is anymore Luke you know but I mean and all of this stuff is free you know we wrote a book last year about for professional athletes and you can get that as an audible for free on the homepage and then there's three other books you can just grab for free as well so go to talk David comm I mean it's tonnes tonnes of free stuff yeah and I think the final word is as I'm you know as difficult as this might be to hear for most of us is that you know we have to become our own healers we have to get out of the victim mindset you know that he he betrayed me she cheated on me and because of that I don't trust men I don't trust women you know we have to we have to clear that up and it can be cleared up you can have been betrayed two three six ten times in life and you can clear up every one of them with a really good counsellor therapist coach so don't hold on to that stuff you know we tell people don't ever go out and date until you're happy as hell single and I mean that sincerely you know until you can sit in on a Friday and Saturday night and be a piece without nicotine pot alcohol sugar you know it was without any kind of nonsense you know when you can sit a piece with a book in 2024 and you can sit a piece with a candle in a bathtub on a Friday night and be single and be happy now you're ready to date until you get to that place don't even go there because there's probably resentment you have it former partners you haven't cleared up and that's the number one thing we do Luke when we work with people that want to get into a great love relationship we say we're gonna start in the past baby if you have any regrets any resentments again I don't care how dare damn they they treated you it doesn't matter anymore it's in the past if you're carrying it now you're not in the present and you can't have a great relationship if you're thinking of some guy in the past or some woman in the past right so we got to clear that crap up before you even date before you go on and swipe left or swipe right or whatever the hell you you gotta clear up that past that passes an anchor man and it will keep you with the same type of people that never worked until you clean up your past absolutely brilliant advice David and thank you ever so much for joining us and I hope you have a wonderful year oh I Luke I had a blast with you you have a great 2024 as well Wow what a powerful conversation that was and fast-paced too there was so much valuable content in there and it's perhaps gonna take a second listen to really pick up on some of the nuggets that were thrown in there from David's story it was absolutely fascinating what was it you took away from that episode what things can you take from the conversation that me and David had to really make one single step one change in your relationship today what steps do you think you can take to overcome any victim mindsets or resentments that you might be holding on to from past relationships or how could you implement David's suggestions for initiating conversations about intimacy and needs with your current or future partner to ensure a more fulfilling relationship David emphasised the importance of self love and starting the day positively what are some daily self-care practises that you can begin to help you achieve a sense of peace and happiness within yourself and also what about exploring the concept of honesty that we both discussed in what ways do you think that being a hundred and ten percent honest should there be such a thing in a relationship can do to prevent issues such as infidelity and how prepared are you to engage in such openness I'd love to know what some of your thoughts are regarding some of these questions please share them with me email me directly at Luke at life coach Luke calm leave a review rate the podcast on your preferred app that would be it really helps get it in front of more people and I really really appreciate that so thank you ever so much once again it's absolutely such a pleasure to be talking to you again today and I can't wait to talk to you all again next week.